This is correct. You feel like a sucker working your butt off for about what a hair stylist makes in Northern Virginia.

Your statement is true for elementary schools, but middle schools and high schools have full days on Mondays.

that HUGE 2 1/2 hours is used for meetings, conferences, and planning...every teacher I know is there 2 - 3 hours after dismissal and takes work home...NO overtime, heck nothing in pay increases in 5 years...but increased testing, evaluating, class size and teaching to pass tests requirements??? AND then really smart people like you say they only work 41/2 hours?? no prob??? AND blame them for not giving enough!!!!

When Monday early release was started MANY years ago, an extra half hour was added Tues through Fri to make up for that time. It is not free time for elementary teachers!!!

Are you aware that when teachers were provided with the additional planning provided by Monday early closings, the other four days of the week were lengthened in order to ensure that FCPS students receive as much instructional time as other Virginia jurisdictions? I would imagine that you are ignorant of that fact. Are you also aware that teachers don't "take a half day" on Mondays? The remaining Monday hours are used for collaborative planning, professional development, and staff meetings. But what do I know? I'm just a lazy FCPS teacher, and have been for almost 39 years.

It is highly likely that this half day is not something teachers want or need. In my district, the state came in and mandated that we have an "early release" day every week and that teachers spend that time in meetings. The teachers want the instructional time and if the district must release the students early, the teachers would rather be planning, grading, tutoring or making parent contacts and NOT in meetings. Usually the teacher walks away from these meetings with more to do (assignments) than they had before they attended the meeting. Teachers have far less control over their schedule than you give them credit for.

The problem is that we are no longer allowed to use that half-day. We are required by administrators to spend the entire time in meetings every week, and the meetings don't directly drive our jobs, so the time is being wasted.

Time was less of a concern when we actually had the ability to direct how we used our own Monday afternoons.

I am not sure how the plight of the teachers is any different from any other job this day and age. Everyone feels over worked and under paid. However, most positions do not have built in work days, so many scheduled days off that you can not keep count of them and 2 months off each year to recharge your batteries and get ready to start again. Non teachers are lucky to get 1 week to recharge each year. Yes the pay may be slightly less, but this is a benefit that is worth the smaller salary.

The real problem with this 1/2 day on Monday is the day care challenges. People struggling with less money and more pressures at work are forced to pay for day care or take time off from work because of this choice of scheduling what is being described as meeting time. Why not have the meeting time the 1/2 hour every day you extended the school day.

Teachers like everyone else do need respect, however, to go in front of a group of people to complain is not the correct way to make change. How about working at the school level to implement lesson planning by subject with each person taking a few chapters and then sharing the work. Or how about the county putting the lesson plan in place county wide to make sure that each child is getting the same information at the same time. I assume some would think this would be taking away the teachers individual style, however, you can not have everything when you work for the tax payers. Just my thoughts. Good luck to all.

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Do you know how many pointless meetings teacher have to go to?

I have worked in 4 other states over the past 20 years and I can promise you that most other school districts do not have the intense workload that FCPS has. we have had more than a dozen new initiatives this year...things that we have to be trained on and learn, i.e. teacher eveluation system, standards-bassed report cards, online report cards, online attendance, new Blackboard site, online math textbooks, etc. etc. We also are not given adequate supplies. We have to make and copy packets to make up for the lack of textbooks, and create our our own math games and resources because they are not provided for us here. Every other place I have worked has given me a full set of math manipulatives and instructional games, but here I spend hours making my own. Only in FCPS have I had to make curriculum maps and attend CLTs. Those things take time and lots of it.

I am not a teacher, but I do work in a school: those half-days are spent with team planning among other things. Gone are the days when a plan-less teacher could just put on a filmstrip to fill the day. The teachers I see every day spend not only their own time, but also their own money for improving their instruction. What really gets to me, especially as I am responsible for attendance, is the number of days the children are out of school for ski trips, and "emergengies" in Orlando. Where is the ethic there, parents?

those half days are taken up with required meetings. It is not free time for teachers.

We take a 1/2 day? You sound like we leave and go get pedicures! Why don't you come and see what we really do! You truly have no idea. We are in meetings Monday afternoons, workshops, and other things that we have to be trained on.

Teachers do not have two months off. They are unemployed for two months out of the year.

A work-year of 50 weeks x 40 hours = 2000 hours. The teachers I know work at least that number of hours in 10 months and then have to find temporary employment teaching summer school or camps on their yearly furlough.

It's one thing to work a 50-hour week; tons of people do it. Teachers do it but are paid for 37.5 hours with no way to be paid for those 12.5 hours they work over contract.

Years ago, 1/2 hour was added to each day of the remainder of the workweek in order to allow for the Monday elementary meeting time, so that statement is completely false. In middle and high schools, teachers have a set planning period every day. This is the equivalent of that time for elementary teachers, who, incidentally, have even more preparation to do the younger the student. While the Monday early-closing was originally supposed to be used for planning and preparation, a necessity for teaching, administrators have turned it into meetings and inservice training for the most part. It is not "free time".
Furthermore, most teachers continue to stay hours after the children go home, and if they are unable to do that, they take work home with them. Every single day, including weekends. It can easily be a 24/7 job. There seems to be a lot of misinformation "out there" about what teachers do. Unless you are in the classroom as a teacher actually doing this job, you have no idea. As another reminder, teachers have advanced college degrees and continue to take courses for the remainder of their careers in order to stay certified. Of course there will be an occasional poor teacher, but the majority are hard-working and dedicated to putting the children first. No amount of money could ever compensate for the amount of work they do willingly.
Not sure where the sour grapes are coming from in regard to the many negative comments I see sprinkled throughout this thread.

Your statement is actually NOT true for teachers in elementary schools, as we do not leave when the students do. Contract hours keep all teachers at school for AT LEAST 2 hours after students leave, but most teachers are here until at least 5 on Mondays. The time is often spent attending classes, professional development, and staff meetings. it is also not our choice to cut Mondays short. I would gladly take additional instructional time. Please do your research before making such accusations. I love my job and didn't get into it for the pay, but it makes me so upset to hear such comments, when I see how much my colleagues go above and beyond for children every day.
I am astounded by some of the negative comments on this page. I'm trying to teach my class to be civilized citizens of this world. There's no need for such hostility from many. I honestly had no idea that so many had such feelings towards the "lazy" people who chose teaching as a profession because the want "more money, more money, more money" and summers off. Another fact check as many have pointed out, the union is there to voice the opinions of many teachers in FCPS, not all, and since VA is a right to work state, cannot negotiate salaries. For goodness sake, though, that's not the point of this whole article. Look for the main idea and supporting details, people! :)

Annie, Tired Teacher, and others who are in the teaching profession - please take heart, there are people out there (myself included) who, while not in the teaching profession, are aware of the enormity of the workload you have. In my case, I have several friends who are teachers, and I see what they go through in order to comply with all of the requirements they have. Not only do teachers have to teach their students, they also have reams of paperwork, endless meetings, parent conferences, grading papers, etc. They have kids who don't speak English, kids with learning disabilities, and kids whose parents send them to school sick so that they don't have to stay home and take care of them. I'm not saying that all teachers are great, because my kids have had a few not-so-great teachers, but overall, I think most of the ones I've met seem to genuinely care about their students and are most assuredly NOT in it for the money. It seems to me that we need to jettison all of the ridiculous testing requirements and let the teachers teach! Let's reduce the administrative workload and bring creativity back into teaching. Let's stop pushing electronic gadgets and software that don't work, and ask the people who are really in the trenches what they need in order to get their job done. And please stop blaming teachers for everything. I too am surprised at the level of hostility displayed by many of the posters on this topic.

Virginia is a right to work state. Unions do not negotiate teacher salaries in Virginia so why would there be any special fealty to the unions?

The problem is that the workload has been increasing over time and it is taking away from the time that teachers used to have making connections with their students and making the learning meaningful. One of the examples given in the article was that one teacher feels they only know their students as bits of data rather than people. Elementary school release early, but do you really think those teachers go home early? Absolutely not they are in meetings, reviewing testing data, coming up with remediation activities, making manipulatives and all kinds of hands on activities to make sure your child has a meaningful learning experience. It is not a half day for teachers. I am sure they would much prefer to be in the classroom working hands on with your child than sitting in another meeting telling them how to teach.

If they actually had unions, the kids would be much better off. And while the evidence suggests they still wouldn't be paid "handsomely," as you put it, they'd be underpaid by a smaller margin.

Not the end. I teach elementary school in FCPS and routinely work 60 hours per week. Making it known that conditions are worsening and morale is declining is not whining. It is telling the truth. I also don't have "union puppet masters". I belong to an association that works to support teachers and improve learning. We are not paid "handsomely" in FCPS, and our pay has been stagnant for years - resulting in a progressively lower quality of life each year as the cost of living in this, the most expensive part of the country, goes up each year. FCPS now lags most surrounding school districts in pay and benefits. The down economy you refer to may be the only thing keeping many of us in our jobs. If you are floored now, wait until the economy improves and many of the best, brightest, most credentialed, and most skilled teachers leave for less demanding, better paying, and more fulfilling work. You may have some knowledge of teaching and come from a long line of teachers, but you have nary a clue about working conditions in our schools today - or about teacher morale. BTW, every bit of that "extra" 2 1/2 hours on Mondays is used for staff meetings, teacher development, or data analysis. We grade papers and do lesson plans at home.

There are no unions. Fairfax County teachers haven't had a raise in 6 years.
The pay is terrible. It's terrible for this area. It's terrible unless you've been in the system for 20 years. Then, it's on par, but you're not as hungry as you used to be.

Excuse me, CTV, but do you do your job solely for the benefit of your employer? NO, I didn't think so.

Just because teaching has this unrealistically smarmy reputation/expectation of "kids first", I can guarantee you that most teachers are probably holding down a job for the same reason you are: they like to have a place to sleep and food to eat.

I taught because I liked the profession: I liked working with kids and I liked sharing my love of learning. I chose not to continue in that profession because it just didn't pay enough and, well, I refuse to live to work.

From where I'm sitting, CTV, you're expectations of teachers and the teaching profession are unrealistic.

Absolutely!!!

When the teachers stop respecting socitey and think we're an endless pit of money, don't expect our help.

I am a former teacher--not in FCPS. My children graduated from FCPS schools. I have friends who are currently teaching and working in FCPS. The stories I hear from the teachers (elementary) are appalling. The paperwork requirements and the edicts from "Above" are taking away all the fun and creativity that make teaching worthwhile. Yes, my friends gripe about the money, but not nearly as much as the "system".
It appears to me (from anecdotal observation) and reading about the system and watching School Board meetings, that the "powers that be" just don't "get" it. One teacher told me that she believes that FCPS wants every teacher to be doing exactly the same thing at the same time.
Well, guess what? Students are individuals and a good teacher recognizes this. I understand that testing should be a part of the equation--but scoring well on tests does not necessarily mean that the students are learning what they need.
It starts at the top. Jack Dale does not understand the classroom demands. He is more interested in his celebrity and making money as a consultant to outside agencies. I hope that when the School Board negotiates the next contract with a Superintendent that the work will be more important to him/her than the image.

You mention the Board's April Work Session. When was the agenda for this work session determined? Is the purpose of the work session described in the minutes of any previous work session or Forum on Board Topics? You mention substantive concerns raised by teachers. Teachers aren't the only community members who have perspectives on the current schedules. It has been at least 17 years since a work session took the time to consider an alternative to the current Monday early dismissal policy for all elementary schools. I would think that any thorough discussion of teacher planning time would include the types of alternatives recommended by the Time and Learning Task Force in 1996.

How about more money? Even in this economy, professionals get raises, especially in this area.

Some good points, Wien. Not sure about your DOD comment. I have worked with former DOD teachers - who certainly had the hardship of living overseas (or adventure - depending on how you view it), but the pay and benefits were excellent and the student teacher ratios good. Also - if teacher workload is increasing every year and at the same time wages are not keeping up with the cost of living in Fairfax County - or with neighboring districts, it is not talking out of both sides of our mouths to point these things out. The workload increase is real and the wage/benefit disparity with neighboring districts and with the cost of living is also real. It is unfortunate that they are happening at the same time. So do we want some change, yes. I don't want a pay increase to keep up with workload, I want one to keep up with my rent.

Ha! Raises?!?! You must be smoking gasoline! But at lest you're being honest with all of your posts: "Gimme money, gimme money, gimme money!! Mo money mo money!!" You just left out the threat part about ruining our childrens education if you don't get it. You should really brush up on your UNION talking points.

It is appalling the ignorance of people. Teachers are civil servants with a stagnant position for advancement. Most companies have room for advancement and the opportunity to earn more money outside their salaries. So, when teachers complain about the “system” or the “workload” they are complaining about time – and time is money!! There is a direct relationship between the time a teacher works on adjusting materials, differentiating instruction, designing creative ways to help students learn and understand the material more efficiently and these things take time. When teachers work outside the regular hours of the school day and work “overtime”, they don’t get paid more. There is no incentive to work harder yet every teacher does. Teachers work tirelessly to help….wait for it….the kids. There aren’t many perks of the job and coming from someone who is a teacher, who can’t afford to live in the county that I teach in, who has to coach and tutor to make ends meet, who stays after with kids and takes time away from his own family to spend it with someone else’s kids, who’s salary has been frozen for 4 out of the past 5 years, and who continues to work as hard as I did the first day I began my career I have to say…know what you are talking about first before you make grossly outrageous and ignorant observations about something you have no idea about. I feel bad for you!!! Have a blessed day!!!

Ignorant!?!? Do you even know what a "salary" means? Do you relaize that you are not an hourly employee? Do you realize that many here ARE ALSO civil servants? DO you realize that many here are putting in long hours to make up for lost staff?? Do you know how many here have suffered tax hikes and job losses while you whine for bonuses and raises? Screw you and your supposed ignorance.

WOW!!!??? you HAVE no respect for what a teacher does ...hopefully you have NO children...because if you do...they are children of a greedy, rude, self entitled big snot...and they probably have behavior problems that come from the parent....

Oh, I care about teachers. I just don't care for the greedy rude and self entitled little thugs that inhabit Fairfax Coutny schools. Oh, and by not agreeing to throw money at teachers or swallow your lies, how am I any of those things Janet? Is it greedy and rude to point out your hypocrisy and demand some honesty and accountability? Or are those concepts so foreign to you that the mere suggestion of them is offensive? What I hope is to never have children who grow up in Fairfax County. They will certainly grow up as snot nosed and holier than thou as you.

If a corporate employee went to a public venue and complained as was described in this article they would soon be unemployed and the position filled by someone else. As these teachers are so unhappy, maybe they should "helped" to find other work that is more to their liking. And if they did not want anyone to think this is not about money, they should not have voiced that in the forum where they were suppose to be speaking about challenges with the workload. Many professions besides teachers have difficult jobs with far less than teachers. Try nursing, physical therapy, any other job that does not give you built in work days to do catch up days. Everyone else has to get it done and still handle their day to day reponsibilities. I can see it now, the nurse will not be taking care of the patient today because it is a scheduled nurse work day to write in the patients chart........

If it wasn't for the children, you wouldn't be able to find college-educated people to do that job for that pay.

That pay included more non time in front of children than any other profession allows non time for their primary responisibilities.

T-Bird, it might be time for some anger management classes. There are some good ones in Fairfax County.

Workload, pay, benefits, working conditions, etc. are all, of course, related in the thing called "WORK". Teachers who find their earning power decreasing year to year while at the same time having their work load and hours spent working at home increase are not whining. They are advocating for themselves. You clearly have a political axe to grind and think of teachers as coddled little whiners always asking for more. I have had 2 successful careers prior to deciding to teach - one of which was the military. This is the hardest job I have had, and all of my colleagues are hard working professionals, with expensive advanced degrees - who put in long hours, care about kids, and do their very best. You insults and demeaning rhetoric fortunately only serve to show the ignorance we are up against.

Angry? Yes, I'm angry. Everybody pays more taxes and non-school county employees lose their jobs while you hire more teachers, and DEMAND pay raises every year. No, this is not ignorance, but more seeing you and your kind for what they are.

By the way, if you don't like your career that much, you can always go back to your previous two "successful" careers. I know the army is always looking for good cannon fodder like you.

T-Bird, many teachers, including myself, are not members of the association which you call a union. It does not speak for many teachers. In these tight economic times I am happy to have a job in which i hopefully serve the greater good. It is not about the money for many of us teachers and it is not even about the workload in my mind. It is about being pulled away, from actually using your time to do the best job you can teaching students, to have to waste time on things that someone, somewhere at Gatehouse, who may never have worked as a teacher, has decided matter. I don't mind working long hours if it is to benefit my students. I do mind wasting time on things that I view as worthless.

Patty, that may be one of the more honest things I have heard so far. And if that is true, then the voice of the teachers has be hijacked by a vocal minority who only seek to line their pockets and care little about your workload or budgets. As a teacher, you should take over THAT group, and petition them to truly represent teachers needs. Because, right now, all we on the "outside" hear is "give me more money, by increasing the school budget". Maybe your workload is too much. But you should understand that additional staff may come from the existing budget and not from increased transfers..Which, by the way, is what your "non-union" is asking for.

T-Bird, you are being an ass. Do you think that all teachers subscribe to the "union" point of view? Have you ever ascertained how many teachers belong to that association? Most of us just want to do what is best for our students and the county is making that more and more difficult. Many of of us don't care about the money, we care about our kids and our ability to do what is best for them. Sadly, your head is stuck so far up your ass denigrating all teachers that you could never ealize that most of us aren't here for the money but are here for your kids. If you have children i assume they were home schooled because you clearly don't think public school teachers (especially here in Fairfax County) are any good. I went to U of Chicago, then Cornell and got my PhD from carnegie Mellon. i worked in construction/development for a numjber of years before i retired and became a teacher. But in your mind i am just a money hungry leech. What have you done sir to serve the public? I am not casting stones but you come across as a shrill buffoon who thinks everyone else is overpaid and underworked. Most teachers I know don't complain about pay or hours, just how the county is utilizing our hours. Let me do my job teaching instead of "minig data." T-Bird, walk in someone else's shoes before you castigate them.

T-Bird, my mouth is hanging open in disgust. You are appallingly rude, disrespectful, and - yes - angry. "Greedy, self entitled little snots"? Those might be some of the kids each year but hardly a fair or accurate way to describe the vast majority - if not all - of FCPS teachers. You don't go into the teaching profession if you're greedy for money or fame, because that's just not what you're going to get in that line of work. You seem really, bizarrely off-base with your accusations. In fact, you sound like a recent HS grad who didn't do so well in school and resents teachers who tried to make you work hard for a good grade and an education. Please do enlighten us all as to where you're coming from, to be making the claims you do.

Arielle, I'm not sure what comment you are reading, but as you see in this particular thread I answered Patty reasonablly, and was responded to in foul language and insults. So while you may not like what I said, believe me, this road runs both ways. As for what I said, i base that on the attitudes and writings here as well as the public image portrayed by both the school administration and the teacher representitives. This "opinion" I have has been formulated over the years, with several hostile exchanges. Weather you want to call them a union or not, they leave a bad taste in peoples mouth. As for my 'qualifications", I need no more qualification on the subject than being a taxpayer in this county. Is my opinion biased by some personal fact? Perhaps I have a personal connection to the county budget. Perhaps I'm just worried about my tax bill going up without good reason.

As for your personal aspersion on my education, HS was many years ago and nowhere near here. Sorry.

I want to believe that, but sadly those who represent the teachers union are trying to pull both levers: the higher wages lever and the less workload lever. I'd suspect we'd see immediate backlash and strikes if the school system cut teacher pay a small percentage to hire additional resources to reduce workload and build in planning time. Though some teachers would probably accept a better working environment for less compensation, the fact is the public face of teachers is the union. And they're harping on compensation 365 days a year, which is why it seems disingenuous when folks say it's just about low morale (which is really a problem in every business in this economy).

Sorry Barbara, nobody believes that. Especially when this is brought up the VERY DAY the county exeuctive is proposing his 2014 budget. Really? Right, and it's not about the money.

Money is a big issue for young teachers who can't afford to live in the areas where they teach. You want good teachers? Pay a competitive salary.

Gasoline, my daughter will graduate with her Master's Degree in Education. She will START with a salary of $49K. I'd say that for a 23 year old, that's pretty darn good money just entering into the working world. Not to mention that she does get terrific benefits, retirement, AND 2 months off every summer. No one in Fairfax County Public Schools should cry about their wages...you should see what social services entry wages are. There is no comparison in the wages, and yet, social services provide for the basic needs (housing, food, medical, etc.) and socio-emotional supports so that our children have a fighting chance to learn.

This note is to say that Jody is not Jody Bennett from FairfaxCAPS.

thanks

Though that distinction is important, the main point remains unchanged that whoever is lobbying (support groups, associations, etc) on behalf of the FCPS teachers is most vocal about teacher pay and education budget. So it still strikes me as disingenuous to claim workload and time hardships when the main requests have been for more money, which doesn't solve ANY of the root causes of issues in our system.

Hi Martin,

I did note FCFT sponsored the forum. I did not say FEA was involved, but only that they've also been vocal on the issue. I have a story coming on FEA's approach to this issue -- stay tuned, and thanks for reading.

Best
Erica

Yes, teachers are paid more in many developed countries, but they also operate in a completely different system. Other countries manage to strip away a lot of the excess overhead we have, not to mention they funnel students out of school into vocational studies at young ages, and a student's test scores can determine their path through schooling. Growing up in Germany, they reduce education spending on the students with less potential (pushing them to good jobs in industry through vocational schooling or tech/BMW options) and spend more and cultivate those with more potential. That kind of system allocates resources more efficiently and allows for lower class sizes and higher pay - but can you imagine the screaming in the USA if you let below-average kids flounder. Not to mention Germany taxes are a LOT more than the US...you pay 45% for the privilege of that bigger Ed budget.

Hate to say it (because I care a lot about the teachers in my life), but how would I feel "if [I] had to put in the hours that teachers put in (often taking time away from [my] own kids"....uh, hate to break it to you, but most people in Fairfax Country aren't working 9-to-5 jobs. Most salaried employees have seen rising workloads, less resources, and are probably working close to 50 hour weeks, with a lot less vacation time than teachers. And though most of us don't deal with teachers, dealing with paying clients/vendors in this economy is no walk in the park, especially with sequestration.

Ouch! To the person who feels we should follow Germany's example and "funnel students out of school into vocational studies at young ages, and a student's test scores can determine their path through schooling..." I would suggest reading some of the statistics about kids who truly mature later... like in their 20's! And many of these individuals actually go on to some extremely successful non-vocational careers. There are also brilliant kids who have learning differences who may test poorly... so we should side-line them to vocational schools? I think there is absolutely a place for students choosing the vocational track, but that's for the student and the student's family to decide, not the school system. I’m partially of German decent, but given Germany’s history, I wouldn’t use them as an example of how to assess a person’s worth. Gee... look at Thomas Edison who was considered a ne'er-do-well and was a very poor student. We might all still be reading by candlelight!

Yes! Which is why all should read/watch Race To Nowhere.

It's a better understanding of our current education system, which teaches to the test, which came from No Child Left Behind.

Kay G, I think you missed the guy/gal's point. Sounded like they were trying to insinuate that you can't compare salaries across countries in an apples-to-apples format. That other countries pay teachers more, but also railroad students out of the education system earlier and thus leave more resources to pay more and have lessened class sizes. I think that's why he/she made the statement "can you imagine the screaming in the USA if you let below-average kids flounder" and tax statement - I think the point was that we operate in a much different environment in the USA.

Now that environment obviously has advantages and disadvantages. I think we should dedicate time to helping along those students who need it to a point, but I do think the USA overdoes it at some point, convincing everyone they must go to college and pushing everyone to four-year degrees (and debt). I do long for the European/Far East models at times - their vocational studies give people good skills and jobs for life, something missing when some of our underperforming students come out of a low-level four year college with a piece of paper, and debt, but that's it.

The snipe about Germany's history is a broad brush stroke and insulting. If all were condemned by our forefathers, Americans would have to answer for a lot as well, less we forget how we got this country (Indians), built it (slavery), and defended it (just Japanese-American detention camps and a couple nuclear bombs).

Markus (and original commenter), you are absolutely correct. I read the comments way too quickly and definitely mistook the reference to other countries' systems. As for vocational schools, I will reiterate what I said before, which is that I feel there is definitely a place for them... just that it should be a choice and not mandatory for a certain level of student. There is no doubt that not everyone needs (or really wants) a traditional 4-year college and perhaps our educational system needs to improve its guidance for students and families about the benefits and appropriateness of vocational schools, as well as improving the breadth and depth of these schools. But again, it should be a personal choice… As for my swipe about Germany’s history… you’re right about that, too. History is rife with examples of countries'/peoples' in-humaneness. My apologies for letting loose!

May want to re-read the article and teacher comments before going on a tangent about who deserves to be paid more (answer: everyone. Everyone thinks they deserve more). But this article isn't honest about it being about pay; the article is about teacher groups complaining morale and workload being as “worse as they’ve ever been,” percentages, paperwork, evaluations, and planning time. Yet the solutions always pointed to by these groups is salary and budget. So yes, I will call them out when I see a disconnect between what they’re saying and what they’re asking for. Will higher salary solve any of the root causes of problems with education? Would it create less work? Less paperwork? Higher quality education? The solution always seems to be throw more money at it – but we’ve seen that doesn’t work.

Present solutions that address some of the root causes? Or just ask for more money? The latter is easier. And I will always denigrate groups who just ask for more money and use salary as the main lever for educational quality change (studies have shown it isn't close to being the most effective lever).

This has nothing to do with who or what advocates for a work force. It has to do with messaging that essentially boils down to asking for more pay (teachers groups) and less work (teachers). More pay and less work has never made an industry more effective and efficient. In this economy, it's silly to pull both those levers and expect people to react with applause.

"It is unfair to try and denigrate their views because they have advocate organizations that in other states are able to conduct legal contract negotiations determining pay, working conditions and benefits."

Sooo, you just admitted that you DO have a union?!? And let me ge this straight, it's unfair to comment on your self serving, dishonest and two faced "views" because you have an advocate orginization (aka -a union)?? Why? Because they are the ones who make your talking points for you??

T-Bird,
Get a grip pal, I'm a retired teacher so I don't have a union. In Virginia, a "Right To Work State" like most other backward southern states, unions are not by law permitted to represent workers in negotiations for contracts. Workers are free to join unions but must pay dues for membership. By belonging to a union in right to work states, members can obtain legal representation via the union should they have a personal grievance with the school district or get sued by a student or parents. Nobody is preventing you from making your criticisms. You seemingly have many and find educators an easy target for your anti union talking points which in my view, originate from the extreme right wing views that are making a mess of education, workers rights, environment, immigration, voting rights and a host of other issues before the state and country.

HA! Martin you couldn't be further from the truth. I'm not anti-union at all, but I am anti-lies and anti-blackmail. And unlike you, I am not reading talking points at all. No, I believe in the opposite of the right wing: I believe in equality. But you and your kind want to put teachers on a pedestal. For them to be untouchable at any cost. And I find the sheer arrogance of that to be breathtaking. You are no better than the rest of us.

Sadly the entire country has lost altruism in vocations. Everyone's eye is on the paycheck, the next car, the second home, rather than pride. It's shifted in every industry. It's no longer working just to live.

And many of the most noble professions have people under the poverty line. It's just shocking to see how many military personnel return from combat to struggle to make ends meet for their family.

I think teachers as a group are still a positive and altruistic group, at least many of them. But I think a lot of the opinions on teachers come from the incredibly poor PR from all sides. Wage wars launched in the public domain between government legislators, inflated administration/Boards, teachers organizations, etc all forget the teacher in the classroom. So many groups are trying to score points in the public opinion court that they forget the teacher standing in the front of the room who cares about her children. So all the public sees the administration using standards and teacher evaluations to tell them public they're "wisely" spending their money. Then the teachers groups use public opinion by saying children are falling behind unless they get more resources, smaller classes, etc. Sadly all the public sees is these warring lobbyist factions and their tax bill - they don't see the true teachers who care.

Ultimately the group(s) designed to protect teachers do as much harm as the administrators and media to public opinion. But they have no choice but fight.

Martin,
Why don't the so call "Unions" stand together and place some of the responsibility on student learning back to the parents? Why aren't you voicing the need for real parent responsibility and accountability. You would be better served by better representation. It is unfortunate that your own teacher representatives like Mr. Greenburg and others have politicized the issues per your comments above. The reality is the budget is driven by others, not so much the School Board. The reality is these are very tough economic times for all not just teachers.

Does anyone on this blog know the transportation bill they are beginning to pass in Richmond has an added real estate tax in it for homeowners? Everyone is being hit in this economy not just teachers....everyone.

elizabeth,
I'm with you on parent responsibility. Of course they are part of the equation with respect to student performance but, no one including the unions can compel parent responsibility. When our role models are Snooky, Magic Johnson, Britney Spears...etc. what do you expect? Parents are overworked toiling overtime on two jobs to pay the interest on the credit cards, so what do you expect? I provided a link in another post regarding the model for education in Finland via the Smithsonian Magazine. Finland - a country that has few natural resources and was in ruins 60 years ago from WW2 - has surpassed the US not just in education but in overall living standards. The same trend holds to many other social democracies which copied the New Deal American model and educated their citizens. Meanwhile, we have a corporate billionaire oligarchy, which loves it when a dumbed down populace watches PAC-sponsored election ads, and is ready to go to war in countries they cannot even find on the map. Finland lets teachers run the show, the US uses the top down business model approach. With politicians mucking around in education, the outcome is more bureaucratic administrators to oversee the havoc being wreaked by political interference.
Only NOVA and the Norfolk, Newport News areas will pay the extra real estate taxes. Why not other jurisdictions?

My comments are insulting?!?!? You know what I find insulting? Saying it's "for the kids" when it's really about your wallet. Saying you don't have a union, when you clearly do in pratice, if not by law. Asking for more money when you know it will NOT come from the school budget, but from the general county fund, which will mean job losses for non-school employees. That's what I call insulting.

YOU and your kind have cost hardship in higer taxes and job losses to oter county employees while you refuse any kind of accountability. You are a shister if you say with a straight face that this isn't about money on the VERY DAY the 2014 budget is released. Seirously, you couldn't even wait one day to start the annual salary war. And you expect exactly WHO to beleive your lies?

And what's my plan?? a 10-20% pay cut for every school employee and hire more teachers. Workload problem solved. Or, as I said, was that not REALLY the problem?

What is not mentioned is that these German students are "channeled" at the age of 10. It is VERY difficult to get out of the track they are placed in at that time.

Ask yourself, would you want your ten year old's future to be determined by a test and his fifth grade teacher?

No surprise when schools are saturated with administrator and specialists that don't actually teach students. Administrator & specialist Job justification results in "Mondays are spent in inservice trainings, cluster trainings, and content area trainings. It is rare that teachers get Monday afternoons to do the volume of paperwork that is required of them." Let the classroom teachers teach and assign the paperwork and test preparation to administrators and specialists on Monday afternoons.
It must be obvious that a post-industrial society that produces large numbers of people without the basic skills to be productive members of society has a serious problem. But the cause of this problem is not simply the schools alone. Family and community influences, health, and values play a huge role. We need to fix more than our schools--as a society we need to constructively wrestle with what has happened to us (and the rest of the world) in the last 20-30 years. There are no simple answers, but there are a lot of dumb proposals of single-factor solutions.
A few words on education, from the President responsible for the No Child Left Behind Act of 2001 - George W. Bush, whose words seemed to promote a No COMEDIAN Left Behind Act.
"Rarely is the question asked: Is our children learning?"
"As yesterday's positive report card shows, childrens do learn when standards are high and results are measured."

Nailed it - I have less and less time to do the good work of teaching: create engaging lessons, give meaningful feedback, plan exciting units, make creative classroom displays and activities, plan with my team. I go to meetings, look at testing data, and write goals. Then try to put a smile on for the kids. You are also correct in your implication that a good teacher's anecdotal observations almost always align with the painstakingly examined data. We know which kids need help - we just need time to help them.

The one thing I don't understand is why don't we evaluate what administrators actually do, get rid of them, and use their money for teacher raises.

There is more than one Daniel Hale in the FCPS system. It is unfair to single out Mr. Hale of GCM when he is not the Mr. Hale in the article.

Thank you Kathleen. Well said.

James, do you really want whiners like them on your crew? You would be lucky to get your silt fence in.

There are no longer 3 months off. School goes till the middle of June and Teachers return the last week of August. This is not a paid vacation -Teachers are not compensated for those weeks they have off. Work days are days off for the students but not for the teachers, yes they have the winter break and the spring break, but if the county dares to try to change that - the parents get all up in arms because they have made plans for that time. Most teachers I know are happy being teachers, but if you had to go to meetings to learn how to use the new hammer, or to discuss whether Jim was using the correct tools on his job - you would get frustrated to.

Jesus Dottie, people who work construction have to do exactly that! You act like teachers are the ony ones who have to attend meetings. When in your education ,or just as being an adult, did you ever think you would never have to attend a meeting at work?? In construction, even the guy with the shovel has to attend safety and planning meetings. And why is this frustration with your job any of my problem?? Because, by the way, when you ask for more money, it's my problem. Bring it up with your supervisor if it really is a workload issue.

Most teachers work a 194 day contract. That translates to less than 40 weeks of work. Twelve weeks off. That is 2 months in the summer and about a month of days during the year.
Teachers do work hard. Right now, the pay for a beginning teacher is in line with what most new college grads are getting--especially when you consider the number of vacation days.

Patty - How do you know James isn't a Professional Engineer (PE), Engineer in Training or a Project Manager in which case the answer is much more than you will ever do. Why is it that teachers think they are the only ones who went to college and need licensing, testing and continuing education? Sorry Patty, while you made some smart comments above, that was pretty snobbish and ignorant.

T-Bird and all the other troglodytes attacking teachers on this blog, the lot of you are emblematic of the underlying symptoms in the greater society that have led to a combination of teacher bashing and anti-intellectual slogans being expressed on this blog. American society today is a classist society and educational funding or commitment is not distributed equally. Moreover, we do not value different elements of society for every aspect of life in the same way--it is racist and unequal. It is not just about education--it is about health care, social programs, the criminal justice system, the war on unions and the working class, drugs--facilitated by a corrupt system, history--a history of slavery, KKK, lynchings, broken families...this is a social problem and it cannot be fixed just by looking at education or funding or exam culture. We need to look at every aspect of our unequal and classist, sexist, racist, war-mongering, gun-totin, violent society. It is an ecosystem, all connected and symbiotic. This is not touched on in this discussion at all--as usual, Americans fail to see the benefits of a holistic society in science, in education, in equality, in health, etc...
In Korea and Finland (#1&2 in education ranking with US at #17), everyone is essentially the same and so they can focus on the country as a united whole, unburdened by a racist slave past obsessed with war and sustaining an empire that goes around shoving a big stick down people's throats. (continued)

Continued... T-Bird and others,
Overall, consider that Europe is a better civilization--by far--than America, in my experience, and America would do well to emulate much of European culture. To equate Europe with royals and aristocrats (usual argument) is old-fashioned and ignorant. There is more mobility in Europe than in America. There is more equality in Europe. There is greater understanding and appreciation for human rights in Europe. There is a greater appreciation of environmental action. There is less emphasis on corporatism and worship of the 1%. Americans fear the mythical notion of European nobility because it is like looking in the mirror--they see the face of what they truly are inside. Even if you look back at the Revolution there were calls for a monarchy. Now we worship the rich and powerful and celebrities and love the British royal family. Any Downton Abbey fans here?
Teachers should get paid more--a lot more. Teaching is a sacrifice (fact, but not the way it should be--completely) and therefore an honorable profession. They give their life to the country, to the people, to the children, to youth, to the world--they plant seeds that will grow into trees over hundreds of years. That is the essence of nobility. Teachers deserve more respect by people in society--instead they often get derision which you are quick to provide.

T-Bird; he gets no paid holidays. I don't think it is a stretch to assume that he is an hourly worker and not a project engineer.

Wow!?! Generalize much?? SO let me get this straight, Europe is awesome and does everything right (even though they are BANKRUPT and the EU is aboutto fall apart after less than 20 years) , and the United States is a bunch of racist, sexist, war-mongering royalist wannbes (even though we championed civil rights, have been a unified democraticlly elected government for 230 years and, oh yeah, fought Europes two world wars and the cold war for them). Sure, but they are better-by far. I think I would just LOVE to find a job and live in say, Greece, right now. HA! And then throw in an out-of-context historical reference about making George Washington king, and inferring motivation for the enitre country on that one trivial historical fact? Wow, you must be a REAL genuis.

Oh, and then the rant about HOW IMPORTANT teachers are?! Wow, Sacrificing your LIVES to the COUNTRY?!? Are you teaching in Fairfax or AFGANISTAN? Please. What about the people who ACTUALLY risk their lives in the line of duty? HOw dare you even attempt to equate your job with theirs. I am truly shocked that you can fit your head through the door. Then irony or ironies, your rant about some penchant for royality in this country earlier, and then you appoint all teachers "nobility" later. You must be kidding. Herein lies the problem: you think we are here to serve your every need. And now you have clearly stated that YOU THINK THAT YOU ARE MORE IMPORTANT THAN THE REST OF US. Well, to hell with you.

Patty, then you have clearly never worked construction, or even in the private industry much.

It was your personal choice to obtain that education and most postions that require a college degree have the same requirements. For the most part people with higher levels of education are compensated more for their skills and also usually have much better working enviroments so I find you reply rather offensive. I am sure everyone would appreciate a college education, but for many reasons, not all valid, many did not have this opportunity. Treat yours as the blessing that it is and if you are unhappy with the school system, use that education to find a position that better suits your expectations.

T-Bird, in a previous life I did work in construction. As a project manager I might add in Chicago. And I did have health insurance and paid holidays. Salaried workers in the construction industry receive benefits and paid time off.

Then Patti, you must know that many in the constructon industry do not have those benifits and in fact work 6 days a week. On top of that, their job goes by the industry trend: here today, gone tomorrow. So any attempt to say that teaching is harder than construction is false, especially coming from someone who worked as a Project Manager.

T-Bird, you're the one being snobbish and ignorant. When James mentions "I have a shovel that will fit your hand", I immediately thought of a construction worker. If he had said something about a drafting table or a laptop, then I might have thought PE or PM. Don't take people to task for reading into things when it might be the way that something was written that gives you an impression. Frankly, I find your postings obnoxious and nasty. If you want to discuss something, please discuss it in a rational manner, don't just attack people. Everybody has the right to their own beliefs, but that doesn't mean you can shove yours down people's throats.

Tell me Sandra, how am I supposed to discuss this in a rational matter when all of the "opposing" points of view are based on lies, an overinflated sense of self worth and deception. Having a discussion requires honesty. Otherwise it's just an argument and not a discussion of facts. And while I may be obnoxious, I am not being nasty unless you call demanding honesty and accountability being nasty. While everybody has a right to their opinion, budgets are not philosophical topics, and everyone does not have a right to their version of the truth and/or for me to respect it if they do.

And should I just allow you and your buddies to come here and shovel your version of the "truth" (excuse me, your "opinions") without objection??? Is that what you were all hoping for here? Your own little echo chambered soap box? Sorry, but you can';t ask someone to respect other peoples opinion by telling them to shut up.

Linda, what happened in Chicago with the Unions backed teachers holding out while the kids missed school for 2 weeks put a black eye on the teaching profession. They were the highest paid teachers in the country and wanted more. I think we have great teachers in FFX County. What you need to understand is 90% of the people that have jobs are working harder and getting paid less the past 4 years. The economy has been terrible for everyone not just teachers. We all need to suck it up because government spending is out of control and we can't simply just pay everyone more money. If you read Tired Teachers posts you would think they were on an assembly line working double shifts for minimum wage.

Linda you stuck up self possed snob, I did get my pay cut. And I do work late many nights. And as a salary employee like you, I don't get paid overtime. But you don't seem to understand the concept of being a salary employee. Frankly, I don't give a damn about how hard your job is. Don't you get it yet, NOBODY BUT YOU CARES. And if they dumped too much work on me and cut my pay too much, I WOULD LEAVE. Man, it's like talking to a wall! I've never talked to a group of civil servants quite so self possesed, self righetous, self entitled and snobbish as the likes of you. And you people teach the children of this county?!? No wonder why it's so messed up.

"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge" - Darwin

Sweden, Finland, Denmark, Norway, Iceland & other social democratic Euro countries have economies that are flourishing. Not all of Europe is a bust as you say. S. Korea and Finland and 14 other countries are winning in education while we remain stagnant and in decline. Finland and S.Korea have staunchly different philosophies about education yet both are at the top so there is something to be learned from both. You are in complete denial over the class issue. Other countries are not perfect but there is much about those societies that we could study and contrast to our own failures and successes. Maybe a hybrid of what works best among a variety of cultures could rejuvenate our own troubled system.
This nation has the money to pay all workers better wages and to raise the minimum wage. We are at a crossroads in this society with the status quo corporate structure struggling to keep the bulk of the nations wealth to themselves while the struggling middle class is demanding a fair share. Corporate America is recovering from the recession with big profits again while middle class workers continue to lose wages and benefits. I have stated that there is waste in the way our schools operate but it is not the demand for fair compensation for teachers that is the root cause for the waste. Public education began its downward spiral when public education was forced to adopt a corporate model for operating schools and teaching to the tests became the basis for teacher evaluation.

brian kelly should expand his understanding of Europe and focus on those social democracies that are succeeding. Economies are growing in Norway, Greenland, Iceland, Poland, Estonia, Sweden, Germany, Ireland, Switzerland......
Why move to another social democracy abroad when I have every right to express ideas and work to change my own society so that it actually fulfills the promises of its founding principles of equality and justice for all. In a true democracy we are supposed to be tolerant of diverging views. What would you do brian, lock all socialists up?

Oh Martin, so lets focus on the sucessful countries and lets just ignore the catistrophic failures of Greece England, France and other countries. Sure, so perhaps we can just ignore the states we don't like. Don't like racist? Ingnore the South and Arizona. Don't like a staginant economy? Ignore the Carolinas? Can we do that when passing judgement, as you have, on this country?? No, I didn't think so.

By the way, socialism is a failure. It failed in Soviet Union, it's being slowly rejected in China and it's FAILING in Europe. This country was founded on a democracy, on the operating principal of a Republic, not a socialist collective. I'm sorry that you can't seem to grasp the difference in the concept between a democracy and a socialist state. Because Russia and the US are sooo similar....jeez. And you're a retired teacher??

Gosh T-Bird,
Does this mean we can't be friends? Your reactionary rhetoric is all too predictable. Why should we wish to learn from failed social democratic states, other than why they failed, when there are plenty that are proving to be successful? I have relatives in both Sweden & Germany and we all visit with one another from time to time. I know first hand something about how things work there as well as here. My cousins and other relations are mostly content with their democratic socialist countries but also see room for improvements. I see room for improvement here in the US. It seems to me you want some improvement from the way things are as I do. We just have different visions for what that should be. Also, why should we want to emulate racist southern states here in the US when they are on the bottom rung of the ladder in education, wages, health, immigration, social programs etc?
Sun is shining and temps are moderate so it is time to take a break and get on my German engineered motorcycle and collide my big head against the atmosphere.
Later maybe!

Martin, I know many from Russia and China that can attest to the dark side of socialism, so your example has no meaning to me when discussing the "benifits" of socialism as a "superior" system of governance. While there may be room for change in this country, socialism is not it. And my reference to the south was to your selective (and therefore false) evaluation of "socialism" by picking only sucessful countries. Sorry that went above your head, apparently as well as the concept of evaluations and collectivism. FYI - You would make a bad socialist.

Fine, but the ones I know are already working a full year. In 10 months.

Pro-rate the 500 hours they work but don't get paid for if you're going to pro-rate anything.

They're not "off" for two months: they're unemployed.

Gary, the problem is that you consider there to be "contracted hours". If you are a salary employee, you have no contracted hours. You work until your job gets done. So the two terms are contradictary. That is, unless the teachers are in a union they say they're not in.

As for staginit pay: how far in the sand does your wife and her friends have their heads anyway?? You have read a newspaper or seen the news over the past several years haven't you? Listen, if your wife and her friends suffer from self-esteem and self-worth issues (boo hoo :-( ) , we're not responsible for fixing it, nor do we care.

Excuse me. *a* fixed salary
.

Again Gary, the only people who have such "contracts" are union employees. Is she in a union? Or does she completely lack any work ethic and completely does not understand that sometimes you need to put in a few extra hours? I haven't gotten a raise in 5 years, but I'm going to go in the corner and pout about it. And your wife's hurt feelings do not compell me to pay her more when everyone esle is getting the shaft twice. Once when we don't get a similar raise and once when our taxes get raised for her bonus. Because, GOD FORBID, they find the money in the school budget. Little johnny may not get his music lesson.

Does anyone notice a common theme here? FCPS has a history of paying for expensive, useless, electronic programs. From a parent's viewpoint, E-cart was a waste of time. My child would often ask us to look at problems, not to cheat, but just to ask if the problems were correct. Often there were mistakes (which the teachers said they couldn't fix - they had to just send in their comments and hope they got fixed), or the problems were so poorly written that it was impossible to understand their point. Then there is the new online math text, which everyone (teachers, students, parents) agree is a total waste of money. FCPS administrators seem to want to spend their money on electronic "toys", probably assuming that the more electronics we have, the better our school system will perform. Rather than asking teachers what they NEED, FCPS wastes its money on stuff that looks "cool". Let's cut the fat from the program by getting rid of all the time-wasting assessment tools, and the useless electronic goodies and ask the teachers to determine what they really need to succeed. Also, I wish people would stop being so hateful in their comments and discuss things in a nicer tone. I think everybody is sensitive about salaries and money, but the amount of hate being expressed here is just shocking.

Tired Teacher has summed up the basic problem which is meaningless administrative tasks. I hope the School Board will look at the tasks teachers are being asked to perform with a very critical eye and not just accept the data driven agenda of the Administrative leadership. Perhaps it is time to put the 8 Administrative Clusters on a diet.

Tired Teacher, many of us appreciate your comments. Please tell your students' parents about all the administrative burdens and encourage your colleagues to do the same with their students' parents.

I thank God every day that I didn't grow up here. Rather, I grew up in NY, where the snobby and self righteous types that live here would be taken down a notch or two. So yes, I do personally know a number of Chinese and Russian immigrants. And while I never had the pleasure of visiting their countries, I have had healthy exposure to their cultures and have heard many first hand accounts. I know that these countries were filled with mostly good people, but their governments sucked. I also did take many government, sociology and history classes in college. Enough to understand that there are different forms of socialism (socialist communism being one), but none have been quite successful, and none were the intent of the founding fathers of this country.

As for the "superior" wording, that was your wording. Look at your comments.

(cont.) Students and teachers alike are unhappy but are powerless to change anything since everything is data driven and the focus is now on improving test scores and not creative instruction or heaven forbid critical thinking. Unfortunately, I believe it will only get worse before it gets better. The last few years I worked I and a few other teachers were experimenting with and using a business meeting technology called Polycom. We were preparing and presenting live lessons that we delivered from a remote location to multiple schools. So that was one professional delivering a lesson to 3 or 4 classes simultaneously at different schools and we could do this 3 or 4 times a day. One certified teacher could deliver a lesson to students at 3 or 4 schools that had previously required 3 or 4 teachers. The students were monitored by aids (non-professional staff) at their school site during the lesson. These were exploratory efforts that are still being studied and considered. I wouldn't be surprised to see some implementation in the future. One teacher professional instead of 3 or 4 with paraprofessionals that don't get benefits or pensions and are paid less than professionals. If we continue on the same funding track in public education, methods like this may be considered cost saving and a necessary means to solve fiscal problems. This would have only a few applications at the elementary and middle school level but would be more suited for high school.

Thanks for posting this T-Bird! It completely describes you, and lets me understand you much better.

Sure Sandra. Unfortunately for your pathetic retort, I never judged myself superior and more deserving than everyone else as you and your sad teacher friends have on her many times over.

As a teacher, you should try to learn basic reading comprehension skills, and undertand the distinction between simply disagreeing with your version of the truth, the difference between truth and opinion and smugly pronouncing yourself superior, more noble and more deserving than everyone else.

Sorry joe that you see it that way. When you have a gripe-session meeting and run an article the very day the budget is being proposed, it seems to be that their "fellow man" is not their motivation. As for persuasion and psycho-babble, I am not trying to persuade them. I am trying to expose them for the frauds and self entitled liars and they are. And I am sorry you feel the need to categorize trying to expose the truth and not blindly accept the lies as "psycho-babble". I hope you understand that the consequences of their actions are not academic. People who work for the non-school portion of the county are losing their jobs so we can fund increases in the transfer. Programs for people who are really in need are being gutted, or cut all together, for their bonuses. And they don't even have the balls to ask their own school board for the funding. Instead they make it a political issue and make sure EVERY YEAR, that every other agency gets cut BUT the schools! REAL people are suffering because of their tactics. And they DARE ask for respect or dare feign inequality?!? Over 500 positions have been cut from the rest of the county and taxes have gone up. Tell me: how many teacher positions have been cut?? Better yet, how many school positions all together? While there may be good teachers with good motivations, their representation is a sad joke and their bosses are crooks.

Thank you, Erica, for stepping in here. I appreciate your reporting on this issue, as there are a lot of facts that the community needs to be made aware of (on both sides of the issue). Incivility and speaking without knowledge of the facts solves nothing.

Perhaps you would like to share some of those "facts" Therese? Or did you make that statement just to comment on other people's "incivility", thereby doing exactly what Erica asked us not to do?

Thanks joe. It seems yet again some people have equated “civility” with simply being silent if you disagree. As for how I would fix the school budget: First thing is to fire Dale and the entire school board, and fill the positions with appointees from the BOS like every other agency. Break up this system of cronyism that pervades the schools. Second, I like your school bus idea. Make the transportation pay for itself. It is not a core function. In my 12 years of lower education, I never rode the yellow bus to school once. Third, make ALL of the after school programs pay for themselves. If it’s not a core function of education, then it should pay (at least mostly) for itself. And by core function, I mean “can you graduate just the same without that program”. If so, it is optional and therefore not needed. This is the fluff in the budget that nobody wants to talk about because it would anger the parents. Grow a pair and learn to say no for once. Frankly, I don’t know why I’m paying for Johnny to be on the football team. If your parents are that Type A that they need for you to be the H.S. quarterback, then they can pay for it.

Fourth, the seemingly endless support staff needs to go. Everyone from the excessive Gatehouse staff to the school staff. I’m sorry, but you’re not teaching 3rd year Physics at MIT. You don’t need teaching assistants, you need teachers. And if every two or three TA’s equaled one teaching position, then you have just added hundreds of teachers, thereby reducing your burden/class size. And as for workload, efficiency is a good think and means less staff can do the same thing. So if there are unnecessary burdens on the teaching staff (and I imagine there are), then eliminate it.

Finally, and most importantly, REQUIRE the schools to do a REAL audit and a REAL line item budget that is advertised for everyone to see. That is: honesty and accountability. This is no greater a burden than any other governmental agency, and they have consistently flatly REFUSED to do this. Without some semblance of honesty, there is no reason to pretend we have a reasoned discussion.

Clearly Patty, you didn't get the memo about civility. Way to be a class act. So Erica, is this what I get for being civil and having a reasoned discussion with Joe?

Joe, I realized I forgot your suggestion on taxes. I have to say no to that. This county brings in enough money to pay it's expenses if the school got it's act together. And London county is a terrible example of governance. Bad schools and high taxes. They also don't have the industry base we have in Fairfax, so the residential tax is higher. Overall, they are in a tough middle spot between exurban and suburban. And they're not doing a good job of it. No, our taxes are good.

Folks, you're going to have to bear with me if I'm slow to respond at any point (I'm covering a meeting at the moment).

Patty: Your comment has been deleted because it violates our terms of services, specifically, the use of profanity. You're welcome to re-post a comment without profanity or attacks. Please email me if you have any questions or concerns.

Thanks everyone,
Erica

Ha! Funny joe. Some sore butts around here. Of course I agree that special needs and low income individuals get a pass on all of the cuts. Including the after school cuts I mentioned. I also agree about the full day kindergarten. The reality is that it's government sponsored day care and not required by any law or standard, and therefore optional. And if things are so bad, then we need to look at all of these optional things as possible cuts.

Unfortunately, you know as well as I that these things will never happen. Perhaps we should do what they do in Long island. Two separate tax bills for the school and for the rest of the county taxes. That way everybody knows what they are paying,

Hear, hear! I have already posted something similar earlier. Please rest assured, there are many of us who are greatly appreciative of the job that you do. It is a huge responsibility to take the students that you are given, and to challenge them to rise to the top of their abilities. Thank you for all that you do!

I see you have failed to heed the moderators comments or grasp the concept of civility. This is what I get for being civil, and you wonder why you're not treated with respect. There is no reasoning with the likes of you and it's clear you were all just looking for a soap box, and not real discussion.

LOL. Thanks joe. This is not my first time commenting on school budget issues, and every year it’s the same thing. Again, they have proven my point that they were not here for a discussion with opposing points of view, or solutions other than more money. They were here to have their little feel good rally session and espouse their ideas into the echo box of people who only agree with them. To them, it seems the only form of civility is to either agree or be quiet. And any form of negative response to their ideas is responded to with hostility en masse. I also find the very concept of them coming here to write about how great they are and how important their jobs are to be a little more than unseemly. Tack that on to their tactic of hostility towards other points of view, and it makes for a very bad image of the school employees. I am pretty sure if I did that, I would be reprimanded at the least as it would show low level of professionalism and integrity. Makes you wonder about the entire school system to be honest.

I fully agree.

If you're speaking of me, which it seems, then I never said I worked for the county. How do you know I don't have a close friend or a spouse who works fr the county, or I'm not retired like you. Think again friend before you infer threats.

Name names or is this more hyperbole?

T-Bird,
How fortunate for all of the other Fairfax County employees to have you as their self appointed advocate for truth and justice and to attack teachers on their behalf. How do you fit your head through the door? Rob Macleod who posted last night has you pegged for what you are. I hope your dedication towards fairness and justice by trashing educators means you actually show up at public meetings for FCPS and get a chance to be as strident there as you have been here. I'm confident that you will be well received and cheered by all. Threat? It could only be a threat if there is some truth.

Martin, I would never come to one of your meetings. You don't want to hear opposing points of views here, why would I expect any different there. There are other better ways to make my opinion on the budget known than to speak to a group of self intrested people.

Oh and Martin, what about all of the teachers and school staff who posted here?? Shall they be fired too?

Sorry Martin if my credentials don't measure up to your standards. My creed is not the subject nor is your identity or service records. If one must have first hand knowledge of a subject does Obama have to be in a gay marraige to comment on it firsthand. You get the point?

joe brewer, I don't know what your credentials are so whether they measure up to being firsthand experiences or just hearsay is as yet not known. No, I don't get the point when the statement is ignorant. Obama and his staff assigned to this issue get plenty of primary sources from which they make their position the same as the FCPS was hearing about teachers concerns (primary sources) which generated this blog. T-Bird dismisses FCPS meetings on the budget by saying they "don't want to hear opposing points of views here, why would I expect any different there."
How does he possibly know this? FCPS like most public agencies is not a monolithic institution. I have every confidence that there are diverging views there as anyplace else which the meeting that originated this issue here on Patch so aptly demonstrates. Poor T-Bird, he is so bewildered that his bullying and strident views have not silenced everyone in disagreement with him that he again seeks the moderator to call off challenges to his diatribe as threats and as being uncivil when his demeanor has been repeatedly condescending and uncivil towards teachers. Maybe you guys are a team, you know, good cop bad cop. Psych, actually in my view considering all of the mocking and disrespect directed towards people with whom you disagree, more like Bevis & Butthead.

Martin, we were following the guidelines and rules as we were reminded of them in an earlier post. Clearly you see yourself above the rules. As for how I know: I don't know. Maybe I've been following the subject for years and have read many news article coverage of the events at these meetings. Perhaps I've already tried to engage school board members only to be ignored. No martin, the only thing I am bewildered at is how delusional, small and petty you can be.

A primary source, told me you are directly involved in Dumb and Dumber the movie, I can see that!

Actually we prefer Heckle and Jeckel, you apology is accepted.

Martin, is this how your socialist utopia woud work? Freedom of Speech, but only if you're qualified? Here's a opposing theory: People personally involved loose objectivity, particulary when it comes to pay. So your theory does not pass the test. I also do not need to qualify myself to you or anyone else. This is a public website, and if we abide by the terms, anybody can say whatever they like. If you look above, I already stated my motivations and I gave solutions which would add teachers and not effect their pay. What have you done except to hurl insults, threats and rant off topic about socialism? Oh, and as a taxpayer who pays for your retirement and the salaries of the teachers, should not everybody here in Fairfax have a say? Do the thousands dollars people pay for the schol transfer not sufficently qualify them to have an opinion? Guess not.

Childish? I was talking about teacher and school board meetings. I would gladly go to and have gone to a BOS meeting or many other local board and comittee meetings. I would also gladly write my loca representitives. No martin, childish is attempting to threaten people because you don't like their point of view.

No Martin, that's what someone like you would do. Unlike you, I don't believe anybody gives up their right to have an opinion or respond to personal slander just because of their employment.

Nicely done Mr. Sweet! Since it's a salaried job this would work? Or would the teachers gripe about the extra days? Yes!

Bill, people are still reading. And I for one appreciate a reasonable response. I know techers in other districts and they say the same thing as you. An obsession with metrics is getting out of control. Having had a job where there was way too much reporting/metrics and way too little actual work, I can understand where this leads to failure and inefficency, and therefore more staff. It's sort of a vicious cycle. Metrics requiring more staff and staff time, which in turn requires more metrics. The cycle needs to be broken, but that means difficult decisions, as I'm sure al this reporting has generated positions that would no longer be needed. I don't know if extending the school year is the answer. You might agree that it doesn't get to the root of the problem. But it is one possibility.

I'll take that as a no.

ELL Teacher, I hope you will stay, despite the headaches. My mantra is "it's all about the kids" and that helps when demands get really ridiculous. Our county's families are wonderful and deserve the very best.

I don't mind paying taxes to support schools. That is what taxes are for. However, we already pay enough taxes to support our schools now. The problem is not the lack of money for our school system, but the way the money is spent.
Just look at all the money poured into the Department of Education. Since its formation, education scores have gone down. Look at Head Start--for forty years we have poured money into this program. Guess what? It is not working. The myth is that more money translates to better education. That should be true, but , in reality, it allows people to throw money at programs that aren't working.

Our property value went up this year and the state has now passed a law which will increase our real estate taxes for transportation. The Affordable Health Care Act is proving to be full of unmentioned taxes and the cost of health care is rising as a result of this law. The payroll tax has been reinstated(I agree with this one). As the Tea Party says: We are Taxed Enough Already.

Barbara,
I, too, taught school for a number of years. I know it is tough, tough work.
I agree that teachers deserve more money, but, I think the problem is not the lack of funds, but the way the funds are allocated.

Also, there are a lot of other jobs where people work many,many extra hours without compensation. My husband is one of those. Saturdays and Sundays were not uncommon and ten to twelve hour days were the rule. He was not a teacher.

As far as the starting salary for teachers, it is not out of line with starting salaries for other professions--especially, as you point out, that teachers only work ten months. And, in those ten months, they get Christmas vacation, Spring vacation and almost all of the Federal holidays. Few jobs give that kind of leave.

ctv: I, too, have sought those stats. The hardest to find is how many people actually work at Gatehouse and in the cluster offices.
Also, I understand that some of these employees are labeled as "school-based" because they might spend some of their time in the schools. I would be very interested in getting this information.

Work to the rule never works. Most teachers will not walk out of the building at the end of contract time or refuse to grade papers when they know that the students need them.

Barbara Glakas, you are correct. Work to the rule never works unless you work to the rule.

Funny guy. :-) But I think you might be missing my point as to WHY they won’t work to the rule.

Sometimes people address teacher issues by basing them on business models and that don’t always work. A perfect example is how some jurisdictions that try to link teacher’s salaries on student performance. That’s a good model to use in the business world because if an employee underperforms the employer can fire him/her. But in the education world, teachers cannot fire their students who underperform.

So with regards to the issues that are discussed in this Patch article (which is teacher work load and morale), people have to understand what motivates teachers. It is not money. ‘Not that a teacher wouldn’t appreciate good salaries and benefit like anyone else, but teachers are very altruistic by nature and I believe they are more motivated by work conditions , which serves their primary end of being able to help kids. So throwing money at the problem is not necessarily going to solve what ails them.

If you go back to the article you will see that teachers were talking about being overwhelmed with large class sizes, multiple assessment tools, not enough time to plan, etc. There weren’t saying “give me more pay.” Instead, they were asking the county leadership teams to shadow them around at schools to get a better understanding of what their day is like.

It's like coaching a team -- you have to know what motivates your players to get the best out of them.

Sorry Barbara, but Joe has a point. To say "teachers are very altruistic by nature" is quite the self serving generalization. And frankly, the way you (as a group) and your representitives have acted over the past 5 years, it's not very believeable. And again, this article drops on the very day the County Executive proposes the 2014 budget, and budgets are about money. I somehow think that is not a coincendence.

T-Bird,

Again, I was just stating an opinion, albeit a gross generalization. But if you wanted to look into studies on teachers and altruism, I’m sure you could Google it and find some.

I’m not sure what “group” you think I am representing. I speak for myself. Like you (I assume) I simply occasionally see topics on Patch I am interested in and comment now and then. That’s it. No ulterior motives here.

Barbara, you could find studies on alien invasions and the 4th Reich on the internet if you wanted. No, I am not so soft minded to believe every blog I read on the internet as "fact". I understand it was your opinion, as was mine. As for what "group" you represent, you clearly indentfy and alinged yourself with the teachers in your comments. That was what I was referring to. I don't think I misread, but you never know.

T-Bird,

There is both junk and good information on the Internet. I was not suggesting you read blogs. I said “studies,” and, in that suggestion, I meant legitimate studies.

As far as other issues go, I was not trying to represent or align myself with any group, but simply clarifying some statements that were made here on this blog. For instance, some people earlier in this thread said they made $51K and $61K as teachers. I’m sure that is true but I wanted to clarify that such salaries are more of a seasoned teacher and do not represent starting salaries. I did not take a position on whether the salaries were too much or too little.

Also, some were saying how teachers get the summers “off” and I wanted to clarify that teachers are not paid for the two months they have off.

Some suggested if teachers were paid more money they’d be satisfied. My opinion was that if employers better understood what “satisfied” teachers then they might realize that money was probably not the primary answer.

That's it, buddy. Have a good day.